Why can’t Colorado support a state series?

[stacey cook]

Thanks Eddy,

We can all do this, anyone that doesnt have their name on here lets go things can and will be good this year if we all make the effort!

[Roger Miller]

What took everyone so long to get on board, we’ve been offering this up for almost two years, good to see this happening. The issue will be class structure that includes most everyone and doesn’t limit age, type of kart or engine package, and it’ll need some open classes here and there. Cost will be the next hurdle along with which class gets inspected and which don’t. I suggest for the first year to get this up and running that each track/club/promoter run one of the races at their home track to keep cost down, see what the numbers really are going to be for a Colorado series. Keep it simple to begin.
Give me a call so that we can help make this happen.

Roger Miller
PPKRC

[Mike Edwards]

Hold the phone…..Stop the presses. Stan said the SKUSA Mountain Region would be Rotax and Shifters only. Are we not talking about it? Lets not turn this into the WKA!

Mike Edwards

[Eddy Wyatt]

Gents

Shouldn’t we answer the question, do we want a Colorado State run Series or something sanctioned and run by an outside the state group? :bang,

Believe Craig Mansfield had a good idea getting it started i.e. first year. Go back and look at his post on this thread.

Did I miss something? If it’s TAG USA, run by us (Colorado) all classes (shifter, TAGs/Rotax to include what the CJKC runs in the TAG USA local option rules, all are included. Basically the same structure as anyone (SKUSA, IKF, WKA) is running anywhere in the country.

Personally, I don’t care SKUSA, IKF, or TAG USA. I’m going to support it. Simply suggest if we want to encourage max participation and a true state series, we shouldn’t exclude anyone due to a must run a specific engine package. I plan on running a Leopard, PRD or ROK in Master, if that’s OK, I’ll be there as much as possible. Additionally, local option classes could be a minimum of 4. Think we did that back in the day and it worked.

Happy New Year!

Respectfully,
Eddy
:co

[Greg Welch]

In my eyes the class structure for the club state level series is like this:

Club: open or very near to it, let anyone who has a kart come out and play. It should not matter 4-stroke, 2-stroke, 12-stroke as long as it is a safe and well put together kart you should be able to play.

State/Regional: Limited. You want the kart count per class up more than the total count, because the first will help the second. If you have the resources (budget/time/desire/skill/equipment) to play at this level it needs to fit an existing and nationally supported class. This is no longer the run whatever you have level of racing. Skusa + Rotax sounds perfect.

[Eddy Wyatt]

Greg

We’ve had this discussion before, I don’t believe we will accomplish a thing if karters have to buy a Rotax or Stock Moto to run, it defeats the purpose. Didn’t we try that? Look at the polarization and numbers from the last 3 years. May as well leave it as is SKUSA Mountain with Rotax or RMAX at The Track and the rest on the club programs. Thought we were talkin’ about an all enclusive State Series, not club or regional specific. One State series. Simply decide what rules/sanctioning and insurance. Then run the standard class structures and leave a opportunity for opens with a minimum to run. Give all the track owners an opportunity to schedule a race at their track, and yes at Unser if you want. I beleive it’s more important who can run vice where in the state.

If we (Colorado) really wants to get serious about growing the sport in the state, we need to come together, it won’t happen at the regional level being dictated to by folks that don’t even live here, for one thing, it’s cost prohibitive for many.

I’ve been in and around kart racing and the karting industry for over 40 years. It doesn’t need to be this difficult to sort out. In my humble opinion, I believe Craig is on the right course, get the Heroes and their families out, find a way to give the track owners an opportunity to integrate some rentals and at the same time expose all to a weekend of great racing with the great drivers we have in Colorado, let them see the pro drivers in actions.

Let’s do this!!!!!! :clap:

Respectfully,
Eddy
:co

[Don Dempster]

I belive that Greg has a point in that a State/Regional series has to have a class and rules based on a National type structure. I believe in the SKUSA classes they do have classes at the TAG Senior and TAG Master levels that include a few different types of engine packages. The TAG Juniors use the Leopard only. Including the Rotax classes allows many kids racing Micro and Mini and Junior Max to enjoy the experince of racing in larger fields and is a good step up for them if they decide to race out of state. They can also race in the SKUSA Tag Cadet class which would allow them the possibility to race at Super Nats. Hopefully if SKUSA is the sanctioning body they will allow the Briggs package as there local option thus allowing the families at the CJKC to particpate. I have taken my son to race every track here in Colorado the reality of this is that the largest groups are those of us that race the Rotax package the SKUSA shifter groups and the CJKC. I have not seen at the club level any other engine packages that would constitute a class. There may be some of you out there but I don’t see any showing up to race. We do need to make this work. One thing I have seen in this discussion is that some people seem to really have some anger regarding the Rotax engine because of things that have happened in the past. I know most of us that race this series do not race it because of loyalty to a certain track. We race it because it is a good National series with relaible motors that allows for some really great racing. I have heard that in the past there were quite a few TAG drivers thta ran Leopard motors well SKUSA has that class dust off them karts and lets go race.

[Eddy Wyatt]

Good points Don. As I suggested in a previous post. If Scott, Stacey and all want to go with SKUSA, unless they change the engines permitted from last season and make it Stock Moto and Rotax only, we should be good for a state series. Again, it doesn’t matter to me SKUSA, IKF or TAG USA. I’m supporting a state series. I love Rotax ran them for 4 years. Like others, just my preference at this time to run something I can work on without sending it to a shop.

I’m out for now. Happy New Year!
Eddy
🙂

[Jon Romenesko]

@Greg Welch wrote:

In my eyes the class structure for the club state level series is like this:

Club: open or very near to it, let anyone who has a kart come out and play. It should not matter 4-stroke, 2-stroke, 12-stroke as long as it is a safe and well put together kart you should be able to play.

State/Regional: Limited. You want the kart count per class up more than the total count, because the first will help the second. If you have the resources (budget/time/desire/skill/equipment) to play at this level it needs to fit an existing and nationally supported class. This is no longer the run whatever you have level of racing. Skusa + Rotax sounds perfect.

I’m with Greg. Here’s my take on classes in karting…

In my opinion, one of the fundamental problems with karting (around the nation) is the eye watering number of classes. Yes, obviously we want as many people to be able to play as possible without making them buy entirely new engines, but that creates a number of problems.

-Firstly it makes for a very long day; who really wants to stand around from 8am-6pm waiting for their 3-4 on track sessions while TaG Junior, TaG Junior lite, TaG Senior, TaG Senior expert, TaG Senior heavy, TaG Senior Super Expert, TaG Masters, TaG Masters lite, etc run around with minimal karts.

– Secondly, it can be massively confusing for the newbie. “ok, so i just bought engine A, is that legal in class B? No? Well, i’m under 35 but weigh over 200lbs, can I race engine A in class C at track D? I have to buy engine E if i want to race in class B or C at track D?! No class C at track D, so I have to go to track F to race the kart I just bought? And at track F I have to weigh 30 lbs more to race in class B? Screw that, i’m going to buy a dirtbike and race it at any track in the country under the same rules.” Sadly, this seems to happen a lot.

– Opening up classes to boost kart count just dilutes the playing field. Thats OK at the club level, where many of the people will just be in it to have some fun and hone their skills, but its a different story at a regional and national level. Finishing on the TaG Masters podium with only 4 guys in your class – because the others wanted to race in TaG Senior Expert Heavy because they’re under 35 but over 200lbs – takes a bit of the magic away. Again, i think it’s fine in club racing, but it has no place in a regional setting. The fields should be deep, only a few classes separated by age – Junior, Senior, Masters – and engine – Rotax, TaG, 125cc Shifter. SKUSA reluctantly killed off G1 even though it was very popular at the SuperNats, but nowhere near as popular at the regional level. Deeper fields that haven’t been diluted by redundant classes make for a much more satisfying victory (not that I would know :bang ), and keep a series credible. Kind of how every kid gets a participation ribbon at field day even if they’re dead last…same idea.

– For the guys who have their eyes set on the top, more classes can make their desired path sort of foggy. Which engine can I buy that I can run at track A and B, and can take to championship C? If anyone had thought of using karting as the first step on their professional ‘ladder’, it might make them think twice and switch to quarter midgets (I would imagine).

For what its worth, I think that Colorado actually does a really good job at keeping classes minimal! :co Obviously, the popularity of Rotax and SKUSA stock moto helps that a lot. You can’t have the perfect world of 6 classes for everyone and still keep people coming back, so there has to be a compromise (obviously). Just the nature of the beast.

I think one of the reasons that motocross is so popular in the US over karting is the structured nature. The AMA runs the show at the top, so if that’s where you want to go, you play in their classes. Buy a 250cc bike and you can race it anywhere, all the way up to the pros. Want to trade up to a faster bike? Buy a 450cc and do the same. (disclaimer! I know nothing about motocross :loony: ) In karting we have SKUSA, the WKA, Rotax, IKF, the CIK….

SKUSA + Rotax does sound like an ideal mix in my eyes too. They’re the two most popular formulas in CO, both with clear paths to a (meaningful) national championship. Both have relatively condensed class structures, and there’s no reason the the SKUSA TaGs and Rotaxes cant share the same track, and the SKUSA motos with the DD2s. Local options and outlaw/unlimited classes are a good idea too.

How many people here have the year end goal of Vegas and the SuperNats? Lots, and that’s one reason I think we should involve SKUSA in this theoretical state series. Same with Rotax. If you truly want to be the ‘middle’ level between club and national, there has to be a clear path to the national level. Give the racers a chance to race and practice all year under the same rules, and they’re more likely to take a shot at the big races. If not, then they still know that they can with little fuss.

But why not just run things the way they are and race exclusively with your club/track/championship of choice? Well, that’s because we have a fabulous abundance of great tracks here in CO, it would be a shame to not include them all. A state champion would be something more – a guy who can perform on several different tracks. Like the IndyCar champion who has to prove himself on short ovals, superspeedways, street circuits, and road courses.

But anyways, back to Greg’s point; an open class structure in the clubs would allow anyone to get their feet wet in karting and just bring out their kart and have some fun without worrying about buying a specific package. Not everyone is so serious and wants to win a championship! But if they do, they can set their sights on the more structured regional championship. A big part of growing this sport is encouraging the guys who race rental karts to come race a TaG, Shifter or Rotax, or the people who are on the fence about buying a kart.

So why not keep the same class structure from club to regional to national? Well because that means not everyone can and will play. Well, why not keep the class structure open from club to regional? Well because that means you have too many classes and too few racers fighting for a now meaningless ‘Colorado State Championship’. Obviously we also have such a limited pool of racers to play with, that it becomes complicated that way. Sadly, we’ll never be able to solve this puzzle. :bang

(For what its worth, I also completely support a licensing system much like SKUSA or the SCCA. Not only on safety grounds, but for competition quality. For example, a Club level driver would have to prove his/her skills before being allowed to race at the Regional level.)

Anyways, to make a long rant short…

Club Level:
– Open class structure encourages anyone to try out racing with a wide variety of kart
– Don’t need a huge budget to compete and have fun (that’s what most of us are in this for…fun!)
– Makes the sport less intimidating to the entry level competitor, and a bit less serious
– Relatively open fuel/tire rules to make the sport more accessible with less cash
– End Goal: To promote the sport of karting to people who otherwise wouldn’t have considered it, and give them a stepping point to something more serious should they choose it.

Regional/State Level:
– Structured classes, mirroring that of a national championship
– Rulebook the same of a national series
– More serious competitive racing, the depth of talent here should be much greater, and force the club karter to step his/her game up to compete.
– Diverse track schedule means that a class champion will need to be a quality driver on many different playing fields.
– End Goal: A significant step up from club karting, but not quite as serious as a national championship. Prepare the drivers to race the best in the country on the national level. Give the racers a feeling for whether they want to chase a bigger championship or not.

National Level:
– Compete with the best in the country in that discipline
– Top level of karting in the US
– End Goal: Compete in the big name races – SKUSA Supernationals, Rotax Grand Nationals, etc

Thanks for reading…sorry if it was a bit of a rant (it didnt start out that way!). 😯 I love this sport, and I haven’t been around that long, but i just had to get that all off my chest, apparently!

[Eddy Wyatt]

Thanks Jon for the clear view.

When we, my Dad and I had a kart shop and we started in karting many years ago in Florida, the Florida karters decided to run IKF, before WKA, SKUSA, RMAX etc. Everyone ran the same class structure, rules, insurance etc. both at the local level (club) and throughout the entire state. And as you may know, there was a Regional and National Championship (The Duffy) still have it today if I’m not mistaken. In answering the thread subject question from Scott “Why can’t WE?” The point I’ve been trying to make unsuccessfully obviously. We can.

Decide what sanctioning organization that will support a state series, run it like a Regional or National program if that is what everyone wants in a Colorado State Series. Or trash the idea and keep heading down the road we’ve been on since the state club series and CSC went away.

Scott, Stacey, Jay anybody feel free to chime in….

Respectfully,
Eddy

[Brad Linkus]

The most successful racing series in Colo karting history was the CSC. Over 150 racers at every event. It was a fun and rewarding time for kart racing in Colo and we were not concerned with any BS about national vs regional vs club. Winning the season championship actually meant something back then. We ran all of the classes that the club races ran. 80% of the karters ran both club and the CSC races. There were close to 200 karters active at that time. It is easy to calculate the possible turn out by looking at last years results for all of the Colorado events. Limit the classes and you will limit the turn out to no more than 60 at best. This way of thinking has not worked locally for SKUSA or TTAC, just look at their results. Just keep going down the same path and you will get the same results. Why does everyone think they have to make karting into something it will never be. It is not NASCAR, F1 or any other fan based racing organization. WE DO THIS FOR FUN, NOT FAME, NOT FOR MONEY, NOT FOR THE SPECTATORS. These were the classes we ran, the demographics have changed now so the classes would have to be modified to what we have racing now. This was how it was not to long ago in 2007 when we were all on the same page:

[Eddy Wyatt]

Sanity check!!!!!!! Thank you Brad. That’s what I’m TALKIN” about…. But, I’m old.

Why can’t we put something together like THAT??????

:anyone

[Chris Wogrin]

Nice posts all, just a little common sense, which seems to be coming to the surface.
It seems to me that a combination of old CSC and current Rotax and SKUSA rules would work.
Run classes within classes combine rotax jr and tag jr add the CJKC with Cadets however it works based on speeds. TAG Srs and Masters whatever engines they run etc.
It just seems we can make it work, everyone still can run for whatever points or punches they want, bigger fields, more tracks!
It can happen!
I’m more than willing to do whatever I can!
Chris Wogrin

[Eddy Wyatt]

Hello Cris

Thanks for the input, recommendation and support. Brad has lined out a relatively inclusive program that worked before. No reason to re-invent the wheel.

Let’s keep this going. Got to have the support of the racers, track owners and all. If not, at the end of the day, it’s more of the same in 2013, racing at the same track every month unless your CJKC, or Pro-Kart tour. For those who want to run a National program, a good state series to run at home can be a good thing, not a take away.

Obviously we would need to avoid any schedule conflicts. A starting point could be with the current schedules already posted. :idea

Respectfully,
Eddy

[Angel Ramirez]

I really hope you guys can come up with something like 2007-2008 with 24 26 drivers in masters each race,same with the seniors, and a lot of shifters, hmmmmmmm those years 😉

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