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I happen to think Spec Honda is the best thing to happen to shifter racing, however I also think it is just as important for the
4-stroke Tag class to grow as well, both of these packages are what karting needs
(fair price and fair maintenance, as well as similar speeds). Although it is hard to beat the cost vs performance of the Stock Honda motor (35hp $3500), the 4 stroke class is worth its money in gold IMO, not only because it is better for the environment, but when the classes become more established I think it will be just as cost effective and fast.
That is MY opinion
Marc-Proud new 4 stroker, I have raced stock honda all summer out here and ICC all year
My websites
http://www.california4strokeracing.com (still UC)
http://www.blog.california4strokeracing.com (running: post something, I dare you)Marc,
I clicked on your dare and couldn’t get anywhere. Just wanted to blogg ya into being more environmentally friendly by using Alky, the real racing fuel of 4 strokers.
😛I’m not sure about the 4 strokes. I don’t understand the purpose of starting a new version “TaG” class when TAG is already the most popular class in karting (In the US). Its fine how it is. Why introduce a new class that the already existing already popular TaG karts can’t run with? Maybe we should build a 4 stroke ICC motor that can’t run with the ICC’s, and make it a new class! :puke Same goes for DD2…What’s the point? You can’t decide whether you want to shift or not? Just kidding… but why run a DD2 with 3 other people instead of getting a shifter or regular rotax and run with 3x that?
Cody
PS. Rick, making my own user name takes way too much time 😆
Why introduce anything new Jack? I guess we should be running the 8hp Westbends and Mcculloch’s I ran when I was a kid. I don’t understand why anyone in 2008 would want more reliable power. Why did Honda stop building 2-stroke MX bikes this year, because of the success of the 4-strokes? Maybe we should be running the old box style chassis with 2″ wide hard rubbers tires too!! :loony: Your Spec moto engines will soon be an antique when Honda quits making the parts in the next couple of years to build them. The best class to watch at the TAGUSA World Finals were the 4-strokes and their times are faster than the spec shifters and most all of the ICC’s too.
At TaG world Finals, there were 10 lights, and 13 heavys.Every one of them but two or three were from Colorado. last year there were 9 (there was only one class). At most of the CSC races, there were 5 or 6.There have been all kinds of TaG races all over the country with 50+ entries in the last 10 years. Supernats 80+. Has the rest of the world not caught on to this awesome concept yet? I have never heard of a TaG four stroke class anywhere else in the country. I’m sure they exist, but I don’t think the numbers compare (or ever will) to the leopards and Rok’s out there. Also, I think its pretty apparent that KF motors will be the next big thing in Karting in the US. Its been very successful in Europe, and its already being introduced here. Do you honestly think that TaG four strokes will rise above KF engines? :oOo As soon as Vortex, TM, and Parilla stop building motors, I’ll consider buying a TaG four stroke. If you don’t plan for TaG four strokes to take the place of TaG or KF, then we’re just adding another class, which decreases class sizes and kills karting.
I can see why the TaG four strokes were quicker than ICC’s. On any track that you’re wide open in 6th gear 95% of the time, your motor won’t produce much power above that (on a two stroke). Thank god 99% of the tracks from Moran to Egypt aren’t like that. :clap:
I don’t know any thing about the new KF’s that are working great overseas. I do know my overseas Chassis parts are not working great with my American pocket book though.
When ever I am at a large event of TAGs and Shifters I am also in a karter made smoke cloud that many “regular” people can’t stand to be near let alone sit in the middle of it before each big event dissipates it around the track. It was my first year going to the SKUSA Vegas race. I really don’t think that neighbor hood is going to allow that 2 stroke convention to take place there many more times before the EPA gets involved with our family sport of 2 smoke racing. The first grid of karts I saw fire up at at Vegas made me think of how good the 4 stroke could be for all of us.
As far as numbers go your comparing classes that are a decade and more old to a class that is an infant.Sorry everybody (Rodney),
The Blog link is actually http://blog.california4strokeracing.com
there is NO www. (my mistake 😳 )As far as the “KF” engines, those are just another evolution towards four strokes. Those motors were designed to last longer like them, and be temporary replacements for the late 70’s and 80’s technology that was turned water cooled, and ran as kart motors for another 20 years. I remember when I was the first Leopard racing in Colorado in early 2003. Some people wondered why I was trying to race in a Rotax owned class, “what is the point of TaG when there is already Rotax”? I wondered if the motor would catch on against nothing but those Rotax engines, and a tiny handfull of Bilands. By the end of the year there were a bunch of motors. I have seen no KF engines in the US ever (running) and no one wants to support them at a local level in the States. Let Stars do whatever the hell they please, it doesn’t bother me, it will phase out eventually as technology proliferates.
The CIK was supposed to go 4 stroke (back 2002-2003 I think was when they were forced not to) by 2007-2008 but the two stroke manufacturers threatened boycott. Soon enough there will be enough four-stroke manufacturers to warrant a larger market, but that also comes with evolution. I remember Brad’s first Vampire in 2006 before I left (a prototype), a year later there were 10+ running. I now happen to believe the Vampire to be the Crown Jewel of Karting Motors. Those who own them might agree with me I also remember 27 Pro ICC/Moto at GJ in 04 when ICC was the smoking deal. Anybody remember the year later? It was well under half I believe.
TaG Sr in CO also was much larger (2004) it too has dwindled. The same things have happened in the two states I have lived in since with their race classes, Arizona and California. The only thing going out here that caters to the Spec Honda and the TaG/ICC karter on a larger not-just-club-racing level is ProKart Challenge.
I am not trying to hijack the Idea of Spec Honda, because like TaG in 2003, and the Spec Honda thing (building for years, got popular in 05) is here to stay for the next few years (5-10 years possibly) while karting is at its present phase, but it will not stay that way permanently. Technology has a way of changing things I have noticed. Spec Honda combines the best of Honda’s two stroke technology, and Karting’s best new ideas of an affordable structure-which leads to a very cost effective, efficient class. But again, technology changes things; when Honda stops making the parts, two-strokes get harassed more at the racing level, and people branch out more to the different and sometimes overwhelming karting markets, the classes will change with them.
Right now, TaG is the popular cost effective class, but the class will continue to evolve on all levels; which includes two strokes, and four strokes (believe me the quality and technology of the IAME is way too late 1980s, the Sonik is a grenade, as was the Comer, The new ROK is too fast for the Leopard, but the Rotax is a great motor however). I see the 4 Stroke concept rooting here on the west coast, and in the Rocky Mountain region, and changing karting over the next generation of its evolution in technology.
Again these are my opinions, and mine only
Anybody wanting to say anything POSITIVE!!! about the four stroke program is heavily encouraged by me :usa: to post their ideas on my blog site.
again http://blog.california4strokeracing.com
I would love to hear what you have to sayMarc-Cal-4R
Great post Marc.
So in conclusion to everything you said, ICC, TaG, as well as rotax have dwindled to a low turnout in colorado. Are we sensing a problem??? The problem is There are ~100 or so Kart racers in colorado, and 17 classes. That’s an average of 6 racers per class. If you add another class, you have 5 racers per class. So on and so on. This is exactly why ICC isn’t popular in CSC anymore, Its why TaG won’t be popular anymore, its why there are 5-10 (at most) in each class! Sure, there are definitely positives to running four stroke engines…But why introduce a new class, when an already existing class is so successful.
Change in technology is pretty much inevitable, unless the world just stops. If we changed karting, and added new classes everytime something new was offered to us, there would be a thousand different classes. For now, why not be content with running a $2300 leopard that you can take anywhere in the country and race with fields 50 karts deep? Even if you don’t want to travel, it just makes more sense (parts availability). Now we have ~10 guys in TaG four stroke, and ~10 in TaG. In Ten years or so, We might see the 4-stroker numbers explode. But who knows, maybe we’ll all be racing Wankels???
Marc,
I hate to disagree, but I’m not the biggest fan of the rotax motor. 😆 The rotax program is second to none, but the motors…. Its almost like bombardier pulled it right out of some kids fourwheeler and started making thousands of them. Those carbs are ridiculous. They mount the freakin fuel pump upside down, I had to replace mine every race so that it would keep pressure :bang . (Who knows, maybe the wrench is a little slow) As far as your comments on Leopards, they are kind of old school, but what’s wrong with that? Being able to work on your own motor greatly decreases the cost of karting.I think the KF engine will be awesome. Its the speed of an ICA, with less maintance than a TaG. 8) Its working…
Freezeman,
The only reason why I go to big races is so I can sit in those big smoke clouds. I’m the guy who has his tuner hold the rear bumper up so I can floor it on the grid to warm up my motor :joker The overseas chassis parts aren’t working well with my pocket book either, so tell Trackmagic to get on it and build us a race winning STARS competitive kart.Jack/Cody
This post is veering off course into the ‘everything that’s wrong with karting’ from Spec Moto which (in my opinion) is one of the things RIGHT with karting.
As to your suggestion that there are low turnouts in TaG, I respectfully disagree. TaG Masters has the largest turnout of all of the classes. Definitely more than 10 per race. TaG senior has slightly lower kart counts because it has become the local TaG PRO class.
Now..back to the SPEC MOTO discussion. If I wanted to shift, I would definitely go with the Honda pkg.
Thank you Kirk,
Stacey, Are there any guys over there willing to step into a Spec Moto? I know there are a few guys who did not run G1 last year that have been perennial contenders in that class. The Davis boys, Walker, Cunningham. Or You and Adcock? Any others?
I’ve seen you guys selling some your Icc stuff. Are many running them over on the west slope?
Rick
I’ve been getting quite a few pm’s and phone calls?
What do you guys think?
Any of you racers want to compete in a class where your driving skill makes the difference and the motor does not need to be touched for long periods? Where there is enough entry’s to make a win feel something significant?
Or…?
Run your “drilled, corked, tweaked, high tech reeded, leaned on mill to the front of a hand full (maybe) of entry’s…
Don’t you usually spend that kind of money to beat a large field of racers spending that kind of money too…? on a National level? Where they are spending big amounts of money as well. What happened to our sizable fields???
No need. Spec heavy is one of the hottest contested National Classes!
Want to throw them in a trailer and take in a road race somewhere? Your Spec Moto fits rather well there too. Lets go get the major pucker factor turning in at 70 mph gets you! You got em?
Or, maybe I should ask. Who wants to come kick Romans a$$ next year?
Jack, think you got it in you? (tiller hand getting a little soft?) Doc? You’re pretty fast… Aren’t you? Aaron, bring that cute little kart out there and lets give em a show. The sleeper out of this whole thing may be Craig Neff! Following you guys around with his built Moto. Really didn’t stand a chance against your built Icc’s! Lets see what happens now!
I understand Icc’s are a good buy right now (used!) but lets look at this moving forward. We took a class that was “the one to watch” and whittled it down to a hand full of karts at best. How bout some of that blood and guts racing we owe to ourselves?
Come on Cunningham! One of these Hondas can even haul your (new found) skinny a$$ around pretty good.
Perry, you gone soft too?
Questions?
Rick
cell 303-886-4190TaG Masters…
The Class with the closest racing and the most passing.
The class that the spectators demand 20 lap mains. 😀
Spec Moto is the way to go if you want to pull gears IMO…Ricky dude, what happpens when all those containers of 10 years old parts dwindle away. Honda isn’t keep making the old stuff for every ❓
@p herrmann wrote:
… containers of 10 years old parts dwindle away. Honda isn’t keep making the old stuff for every ❓
Actually, Honda is very good about keeping parts on hand for older equipment. When they ran out of cylinders a year and a half ago Honda could have and did substitute a different model year, 1997. While not exactly the same, they were close. The reason they ran out of 1999 cylinders was the mold for making them was worn out. Karting wants the ’99 and once Honda understood the reasons for that specific year, Honda built a new mold to continue production of the cylinders.
It turns out that Honda doesn’t just take the parts left over after production ends and calls them spares and when they are gone, their gone. What Honda does is contracts with contract manufacturers to provide parts on an ongoing basis. The parts you buy today for our old engines are not old parts, they are new parts, many manufactured with in the past year. Honda’s part policy is simple, as long as the parts sell, they will continue to produce them. That is why you can go to Honda and get parts for a 20-30 year old bike.
What some don’t know is that Honda motorcycle parts do not come from Honda motorcycle company. Honda parts is a separate company.
We are in no danger of losing our parts supply for our 1999 Honda 2 cycle engines. I get guys who ask, “But how long will they make them now that Honda is making 4 cycles.” What direction Honda Motorcycles has no impact on which engines and bikes Honda Parts company supports. Honda parts supports those packages that sell, its really that simple.
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