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RBI Posted: Fri 01 19, 2007 11:05 am Post subject:
Sorry for the typing but it is only 58 degrees in my office and my fingers are not working.Hey Richie, pay your heat bill!
RBI Posted: Fri 01 19, 2007 11:05 am Post subject:
Would everyone agree that we have more HP now then we did 110 years ago?I think Brad had a twin steamer back in the day.
Richie,
Sounds good to me. Roman has run both Tag With FWB and Without FWB. Honestly, he does not like the Tag as much without them but dislikes brake failure and poor performance even worse.I’m pretty sure Rotax Doesn’t impose a weight penalty and see’s no significant advantage either way. And for us it’s not about adding weight for the brakes, we’re usually over a little ways anyway. Looking out for other racers as well.
Glad to hear your going to go and have some fun racing again. I’ll bring some of my home brew to try. better get in shape and build your tolerance though, it’s pretty potent! :cheers:
Rick
Hers the thing. Everyone says that front wheel brakes can go deeper before braking, and that is true.
HOWEVER, with front brakes you can not trail brake. trail braking is huge in TaG. Like my dad said, in ROTAX they hae allwed them all last year the the fastest guys did not run front brakes.
If we do this test, to see which is faster, I would like to be there. However they put the endurance race right on top of the Florida winter tour so a few Shockwave drivers can not make the event.
We all seem to agree that front brakes are safer, and I will run the brakes to be safer if there is no weight penalty. I would have the advantage at tracks with heavy braking, but there are NO tracks in Colorado with heavy braking. If you think we have heavy braking here go to either Supernats, Jacksonville FL, Norman OK, Norway IL, Infineon CA, Phoenix AZ, Tucson AZ, Newcastle IN, or most tracks outside of the state. I do love the tracks in state but they do not have heavy braking.
In Colorado front brakes will not be an advantage, we can go deeper into what little braking we have, however if you EVER have to brake while turning they will be a disadvantage.
If a weight penalty is applied then I will be unsafe and run rear brakes.
To do an accurate test it needs to be the SAME DRIVER Also it can take up to a full day to adapt between front and rear brake cars. One driver needs to spend a full day on front brakes, and a second full day on rear brakes. This is the only way the test will be accurate. At Centennial my best time in a front brake Rotax is 54.5 and best in a rear brake Rotax is 54.46, that sounds pretty even to me, yea?
If they are allowed at a weight difference, I will run whatever is the lightest weight.
Greg,
Not trying to point out right or wrong but trail braking is huge is every type of auto racing. At the bondurant school, they have your Shifter hooked up to measure trail braking which of course has front brakes. I do not know a single driver in shifters that do not trail brake. Maybe it’s old school but everyone I have raced with does.
Just my experience,
RB
Ps. I will test this while in Phoenix this week. I will have Alan help me with the data and let everyone know the results when I get back.
I will have Alan conduct the test. It will take him 3 laps to adapt to the different brake systems. We can do it in GJ as we have past times from all CSC races and will be able to compare them to his lap times.
RB
I agree with you there Richard. “Trail” Braking really defines staying on the brakes at the point of turn in. This is of course to distribute weight to the front tires, allowing them to bite and “rotate” the car at it’s proper slip angle. I guess with just rear brakes it is a trail brake, but not really in the sense that rear-braked karts have basically no weight to transfer, or slight at best? I don’t know much, as I probably have more car experience then kart.
Just from what I’ve seen and learned, I find it very interesting to see how shifter kart pilots adapt(or don’t adapt) to driving a Formula car. For example, Devin Cunningham was a top shifter pilot in Canada (against Kyle Marcelli, Mike Vincec, Daniel Morad, etc). The kid simply couldn’t grasp the weight dynamics of the Formula car. He was super quick through 1 or 2 corners where he didn’t have to trail brake the car, but otherwise he’d be 1 sec of so off Kyle and Daniel’s pace.
He also won his “Star Racer” show up in Canada and has a free Star Mazda ride….so who knows :idn: .
That will be sweet to have Alan do the test, curious to hear from his experiences which he likes better
Rear Brakes are what its all about, thats why I like racing TaG, more skill involved with rear brakes.
Ben Schermerhorn Posted: Fri 01 19, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject:
Rear Brakes are what its all about, thats why I like racing TaG, more skill involved with rear brakes.Try running at 400lbs +
I appreciate what everyone is saying about the added safety of having front brakes especially with the heaver tag weights that we are seeing. With the redundancy alone you have a safer kart.
With that said we all enjoy a hobby that does not lend itself to being safe in the first place. I believe that you have far more of a chance of getting hurt by an inexperienced and/or overaggressive driver than a compete failure of a rear brake only kart.
Aren?t the Tag classes designed to be a fast but economical solution for kart racing? Has anyone priced that cost of putting front brakes on your kart if you do not already have them or purchasing a new one with them vs. without? I am looking into pricing and am waiting for a call back suspecting the price to be over a thousand dollars to add a front brake system. It will make the price to enter the class that much higher and someone considering running the class feel that they are at a disadvantage without them.
Front brakes will be an advantage at the tighter Greely, Bandi, and Steamboat tracks that offer heavier braking. You can not convince me that it wouldn?t. Have a pro driver like Alan run the test on a tight track that requires some good braking and do it scientifically. I do not know if Grand Junction is a tack to do it at. I spoke with Greg Bell from Leading Edge Motorsports yesterday and they have tested a kart with and without and found more speed with front brakes (go figure)! A proper test with Alan would enforce that finding.
For those concerned about safety wouldn?t a solution of going with a dual rear brake caliper system that incorporates twin master cylinders make sense? If you do that along with a high quality rotor I suspect it would be a cheaper solution for you and everyone else and keeps the integrity of the class intact.
Tag USA is using weight in an attempt to balance the different motors. Mixing front brake karts with or without a weight penalty with rear brake only karts would create more complains and issues about track to track advantages/disadvantages that are already exist with the motor packages. I can not see making everyone put them on or run with people that do and don?t have them as a fair solution.
Thanks,
Troy
I find it interesting that all the same things being discussed about front wheel brakes is the same things being discussed last year when Rotax allowed the option for front wheel brakes. None of the feared driving issues or performance advantages proved to be warranted. Why do people feel like more testing is necessary? All across America amatuers and professional drivers completed last year within classes with mixed karts, some having front brakes and some not. I can’t believe there is a series anywhere that is any more competitive than the Florida Winter Tour. All the top drivers in Junior, Senior and Tag classes ran without front brakes last year and this year. Plenty of drivers chose front brakes but clearly didn’t have a competitive advantage. There is plenty of data guys! We don’t have to do more testing. The only guys I know of who are saying running with front brakes in a tag kart will provide an unfair advantage are the guys that haven’t tried them. It’s a perception.
Given my long background in motorcycle racing I, too, thought that having front brakes would be a huge competitive advantage. With over a year of results and data, I was proven wrong. Clearly they make a difference, like racing different engines or on different tracks but it all seems to even out in the end.
Since both my son and me have had an issue with a loss of brakes at the end of a straight I vote for allowing front wheel brakes as an option. Those who can or want to have the added safety of front whell brakes will do so. They will not have a performance advantage over the course of the season. It may be hard to believe but look at the data man!
@Troy Howell wrote:
Have a pro driver like Alan run the test on a tight track that requires some good braking and do it scientifically.
Or, have someone drive rear-only and FWB karts back-to-back, same weight, with an accelerometer on board. I have a Vericom VC3000 at work, now if I can only figure out how to mount it rigidly and level…
I’ll echo an earlier post and say FWB shouldn’t be an “option.” Either require them or don’t. In my cycling days, I raced Friday nights at the velodrome in Houston. On the track, you have a single fixed gear (think direct drive) and no brakes. That thought horrifies many casual observers, but as long as everyone had the same configuration, it was actually quite safe even with fields of 30 or more riders thundering around a tight banked oval at 30+ mph…
The qualifier that keeps coming up is weight. “Try running at 400lbs +.” Fine. Have the TAG Masters run FWB, all lighter TAG classes rear-only.
I have to agree with Larry. When he says that this works in Rotax and in Florida he is right, it does. In the Florida Winter Tour the tracks actually require hard braking and yet rear brake still has proven faster, and there are ZERO issues with both being on track.
He is right, why do more testing? Its been done for two years, and has proven safe. We can do testing if you want but if anyone is saying that pro drivers havent already tested it they are wrong. In Florida we raced against Wes Phillips, who has won the RMAX GrandNationals twice- he only qualified 19th by the way. We had multi time Canadian National champions, the Stars ICA champion Joel Miller was there, and simply front brakes prove to mix in easily. Also has anyone ignored the fact that so far with the vote the majority has voted yes to front brakes without adding weight. Where are the other supporters?
Larry is right. We already have all the data we need right in front of us if only we are willing to look at it. Rotax has allowed FWB for a year now. This is the second year the FWT has allowed them. The FWT is by far the most competitive series going. And guess what, there’s no difference. If anything, the RWB karts are slightly faster. All of the dreaded comments of the differences in driving line haven’t materialized on the race track.
We don’t need to study it, there isn’t an advantage, period. If there was, you don’t think the guys in the FWT wouldn’t have switched? For those concerned about mixing the two or adding weight, I strongly ask that you come to Florida next month and watch. You will see that your concerns are unfounded.
@Doug Welch wrote:
Larry is right. We already have all the data we need right in front of us if only we are willing to look at it. Rotax has allowed FWB for a year now. This is the second year the FWT has allowed them. The FWT is by far the most competitive series going. And guess what, there’s no difference. If anything, the RWB karts are slightly faster. All of the dreaded comments of the differences in driving line haven’t materialized on the race track.
We don’t need to study it, there isn’t an advantage, period. If there was, you don’t think the guys in the FWT wouldn’t have switched? For those concerned about mixing the two or adding weight, I strongly ask that you come to Florida next month and watch. You will see that your concerns are unfounded.
Good points Doug.
@RBI wrote:
For those that say front brakes do not make a dif, lets test it. I guarantee that I could out brake anyone with rears only. I have driven both. I can go twice as deep, and keep my exit speed.
@Greg Welch wrote:
Hers the thing. Everyone says that front wheel brakes can go deeper before braking, and that is true.
Lets say you are not producing faster lap times with front brakes for the sake of the argument. At the very least it would appear from these quotes (I agree with) that you would be able to out-braking someone without them into a corner. Explain to me how this is not an advantage.
Not much concern about the cost to the racer in all this. The price point for Tag will now be about what it is for Spec 125 and I think could hurt the Tag class.
For those concerned about safety doesn?t a rear brake only set-up that has dual calipers and master cylinders with a high quality rotor have any merit?
Troy,
I still agree that having FWB’s is an advantage if racing conisted only of who can stop in the least amount of time or who can go deeper into a corner. However, since racing is about who can complete a series of whole corners the quickest the advantage goes to the setup that produces the quickest lap times. The stopwatch has no dog in the fight and is not bias. Just like last year we can continue to discuss this until we are all blue in the face. By the way, last year I argued that having FWB’s would provide an unfair advantage. We didn’t have any data last year so it made for a good arguement. I now admit I was wrong and can see no reason why we would want to discuss this in an abstract way. :idn: We now have data from hundreds of real life races where karters have completed against each other on the same track at the same time with and without FWB’s. Why would we ignore all these real results for the sake of an arguement? On going conversations should be about the results, observations, and knowledge gained.
Some of the very best drivers throughout North and South America race in the extremely competitive tag classes at the Florida Winter Tour where front brakes are an option. Look at the results that now span two seasons. For those who are still skeptical, I have only one question. Why do the top drivers and teams chose to run without front brakes when they have the option to run with them? You can bet your last dollar it is not because of cost.
This also addresses your cost concern if FWB’s are made optional. It has been proven that cost is not an issue IF you want the fastest kart because FWB’s are not faster or winning when compared to RWB only karts. If safety is more of a concern to a driver than absolute performance then they have the option to spend the money for FWB’s.
I think allowing FWB’s as an option is something to celebrate. :cheers: Drivers who want the added safety it provides can pay for it. Drivers who want the highest performance can save money! That is extremely rare in racing! Now if I can just get all my competitors to spend all there engine rebuild and spare tire budget on FWB’s my RWB kart can kick some a$$. 😀
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