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Tony… you point out an additional great element needed here. Passion. Good for you.
Cost is not the reason we don’t have bigger fields. It’s an important consideration yes. But not the fundamental problem. And what “cost” are you going to go after? Motors? I’ve run most of them. A Rotax costs the most but is the least expensive to run over a season. A LO206 costs the least but is actually rather expensive to run competitively over a season. Tires with entry fees? With low entry numbers, track owners and series promoters need to make money somehow – or there isn’t going to be a race to enter. You address cost most effectively through economies of scale. Which means more people (both new and existing racers)…
Too many clubs, series, etc. is not the reason we don’t have bigger fields. The CJKC does a great job opening up families to karting. SKUSA and Racing the Rockies are the two best regional level series we could ask for – especially for those of us who aspire to national level racing. Craig’s series is superb for all the obvious reasons. PPKRC and GJMS are great because you know you can go race there and simply have fun – totally inclusive. However, if any of these series had it all figured out, then they would have full fields and the others would die off. But no one series/club does have this totally figured out.
In my opinion, we need a CJKC, SKUSA, RtR, Racing for Heroes, AND healthy club/track series. What we really need is more opportunities to race together. For example, I keep wondering how many renters would sign up for a rental series that races the same day as a CJKC/SKUSA/RtR, etc event. Craig’s model may be perfect for this. Or how about every weekend that hosts a Sunday “series” race (i.e. CJKC/Rotax/SKUSA, etc.) we run a Saturday “show up and run for fun” race. Imagine on a Saturday before a Rotax race, there is a cadet race for example in which LO206’s, MiniROK’s, Micro Max, Mini Max, Comer 80, etc all ran in the same group. I’ll bet the potential is there right now for the fields to be so large that you would have to divide them up. You could do the same thing with Junior/Senior/Masters and Shifters. No series, no point standings, but maybe individual “class” winners. We’ve done this at various locations over the past couple of years and the results have been great. Add this idea and a “renter race series” and you might be on to something.
Awareness, Marketing/Promotion, Education/Support, and Passion. This is the formula for getting more people entering races. More people entering will drive costs lower. More entrants and lower costs will raise retention rates among existing racers. Ideas have to be formed into proposals that the stakeholders (clubs, series, track owners, shop owners) can get behind and support because they are good for their respective businesses.
Bulls Eye David….. Very good on-topic post. Say again, Good luck Greg and ALL moving Colorado Karting forward.
Hope to see you all next year.
Respectfully.
Eddy
:coIs karting in Colorado broken or is it just experiencing the same thing other racing disciplines are? The younger generations are not as competitive as past generations. Look at event like Tough Mudder. These are very successful events that are replacing races. People are looking more to hang out with friends and just finish vs how quickly they can finish.
You can see this happening everywhere. People want the glory of competing in an event but could care less where they actually finish. With current kart racing we have almost nothing to offer these people. So is kart racing broken or is racing in general something people just are not as interested in anymore?
Tony as usual you seem to miss the point, you age is showing again. Cost and a generation of Kids/Young adults who haven’t grown up as gears heads like most of us are just a few examples of why karting is suffering. Lets start off with cost, as you mature and have a family you will be faced with decisions as to how one spends the family money on entertainment or sporting activities. If you have kids the cost of having them play a field sport seems to be the best route until they either excel at it or start to have major injuries. If your interested in karting the initial investment for some families seems very high, one needs to by a kart, tools, tires every race, driver safety equipment and so on ( maybe even a trailer). So the CFO of the Family (Mom) who controls the check book looks at karting verses playing soccer/baseball/volleyball, or the CFO (your wife) decides that she rather travel and vacation rather they watching you go through a mid life crises. The cost of entry for most adults wanting to get into karting really isn’t that bad for most, but for the younger generations, like yourself, ( I don’t recall you having a Kart right now, Maybe budget or cost is an issue) they find that trying be competitive with the Falcons of the world is impossible. Cost is an issue for those that we are trying to attract to the sport, PPKRC has spent the last three plus years trying to get folks into karting, having folks tell us that cost is an issue.
Now the other issue, Lack of gear heads, how many young dads today really work on their cars anymore, most don’t even change the oil anymore. When PPKRC went out and talk to folks we found that Dads were as much the issue as the cost was. They seem dumb founded as to how they could even support their kid in karting if they couldn’t even change a spark plug. PPKRC decided to create what is called the “Youth Sponsored Racing League” YSRL. This was is an attempt to help get those fathers and kids into the sport and help them understand that they can work on the kart and afford to participate in karting. The clubs need to be the starting ground for entry level karting and the SKUSA’s of the World for the next level up. But, we need to do this together, not separately. Tony, my point is simple, NASA who PPKRC worked with and used as blueprint has been attracting new folks into their sport by providing entry level to very serious drivers a one stop place to go and enjoy racing, regardless of budget. Tony I’ll excuse your rudeness and lack of respect to your youthfulness and lack of knowing the real facts. Tony, I’ve been involved in motorsports far longer then you’ve been alive my son. Karting will always be a major part of racing and its been a big part of the Miller family, we enjoyed it and have great memories. Tony be an spokesperson who represents all of karting and not just one facet of it. You can play either a positive role or a negative role by not seeing the big picture, that will come with more experience and time. Tony I wish you the best in your announcing roles, it obvious you are very talented ,and maybe someday we’ll recommend that you come announce at the SCCA and NASA races.
Roger,
Thank you for excusing my rudeness and lack of respect on my age. I would like to excuse your undeserving sense of accomplishment with anything karting related on something, but I cant seem to find anything to excuse it on.
Like you perhaps I get frustrated with karting almost daily now, as it has become my job. I pay my bills, and have my fun thanks to karting. Financial gains, or frustrations with the sport aside, I love karting for everything it has given me in my life. If it weren’t for karting I would have not have found the path to what looks like (If I am lucky) will one day be my career. But more importantly I would not have forged the incredible relationships with all of those I have met through this sport. I announce 30 races/events a year, and while none of those other sports/events have the disfunction that karting has, none of them are near as enjoyable or as fun to be associated with. So when I see someone trying as hard as they can to give the sport a black eye, and then jet off to another form of racing I get offended. Karting is where I was raised, its where I make my living, and I pray that I am always lucky enough to be a part of it. You nor anyone else will bash this karting community a.k.a my community with out dealing with me.
While you may have been involved in motorsports longer than I have been alive, I have seen more than my fair share of Roger Millers come in, and promptly exit stage right from this sport. You ‘led’ the PPKRC for a few years, found out putting on races is a heck of a lot harder than driving around in one, and got out. So I really do wish you luck in your dealings with NASA. I hope they are ready for someone of your vast knowledge of motorsports. I am sure they will respond to you telling them what they do wrong also.
And to your point of me no longer having a kart. That is correct, I no longer race. I blew my (and my parents) money for three years only to find out that I have no business behind the wheel of a kart. Now I have found a new venture and am looking to escape my miserable past as a back-marker(perhaps not far from the exit strategy of someone else I know participating in this thread)
My original post was not intended to carry any rudeness towards you at all (but if you are inclined to take it that way, I can not help that). But rather as a defense to the good in karting, that you are so eager to ignore. You had a bad time in karting and as much as I really would like to go back and take the bad taste out of your mouth, I cant. I would just hope you’d be more mature than defaming the sport, and rather just move on.
For what its worth Roger, I thank you for your time that you put into the sport of karting. And I would also like to thank you for providing me perhaps my most embarrassing moment as an announcer, when you literally passed a hat around at podium celebrations to collect my pay for announcing one of your races in 2011. A classier act has yet to come along.
Thank you for the offer of one day possibly recommending my services for an SCCA and NASA race. Barring no conflicts with a kart race, I would love to come.
To Greg, Mike and everyone else on the Karter, I apologize for taking this three posts too far, and regret hijacking this thread.
This will be my last post on the thread.Tony LaPorta
970-313-6775@David Fedler wrote:
A LO206 costs the least but is actually rather expensive to run competitively over a season.
David, Please explain how this would be true. I have never heard anyone say this package can cost anywhere near the cost of any other kart specific engine.
From a racing dad and mom who put 2 kids on the track for several years, we don’t race anymore for two reasons, Cost (the main reason) and time. My oldest grew out of the CJKC and the next step was TAG (Takes Another Grand) or Shifter. This would require lots of money and the time to put it all together properly for race day. I honestly did get tired of those really late Saturday nights getting everything set for a very early Sunday morning. My younger son was not into racing as much and he simply said it was OK to not run when we were trying to decide this past year. For me, I always wanted to race but had no time or money for the 3rd kart. I almost started racing with the Briggs Mod guys back in 07 (guys and gal with those noisy karts blatting around the track then high fiveing each other after the race) but the very next year, they were done.
Grassroots racing does not exist in Colorado any longer. The Briggs Animal got us racing in ’06 and the LO206/World Formula kept us on the track with the CJKC. Its too bad there is not a place for adults to race at this level. I always got the impression that the “Briggs guy” was looked down upon.
Would we do “rental racing”? Maybe, depends on how much it costs.
Would we do “Arrive and drive” Probably not
Would we race an LO206 or World Formula class. Possibly if Sunday morning, Probably if it could be some evening. Yes these engines are slower than TAG but so is a rental and everyone else would be relatively the same speed.
Would we race ever race TAG or Shifter? Wish we could but No. Simply too expensive on equipment and tires and could never spend more money on TAG engine than a small block chevy would cost me.Hi Les,
Just going off my own experience. Others may be different.
More importantly though, please don’t misinterpret anything I’ve said as being “pro-this engine” or “anti-that engine”. I was just explaining that cost is an issue regardless of what you run. Sometimes it’s upfront, sometimes it is in maintenance/etc. on the backend. I’ve been a member of the SCCA for nearly 30 years and cost is an issue there too. What they do well is provide an inclusive environment that allows you to compete on the same day with many different levels of budget through different class structures.
One of the problems with karting is the confusion caused by the “pro-this”/”anti-that” mentality. Yes, I’ve heard the “lawnmower” jokes when we ran the LO206 and I’ve heard the “wine and cheese” jokes regarding Rotax. Traditionally, we make it really hard for newcomers when we promote this “us vs.them” thinking because it adds all kinds of uncertainty and that keeps people from getting involved. I get enough of that from watching our government…
My perception is different than Roger’s in that I believe we’ve already changed this thinking in Colorado and we’re ready to take this thing to the next level. I think most of us believe the LO206/Clone engines are great for grassroots, club racing, and just plain getting started – I don’t think anyone wants to see them “go away”. Gone are the days of spending $1500 on 50cc Comer motors when we are just trying to see if the kids even like karting. We all get that dropping $3500 on a Rotax motor is a tall order if you just want to try it out and develop your skills. At the same time, if you want to race nationally, the Rotax and SKUSA classes are great – can’t say enough good things, these are clearly the way to go. Given their reliability, Rotax motors are an exceptional value on this level. My point is why can’t we have both? Why can’t a Masters group running clones share the same race track as a Masters group running TAG – maybe competing for separate class wins during a single race? The ALMS runs all their races this way. So do the SCCA/NASA groups. So do the PPKRC and GJMS club series.
If we truly believe this, then we need to make it easier for people to get started and guys like Les to continue racing at whatever level they are comfortable with. And we have to support each other (i.e. let’s be happy for guys like Scott who are out there racing and beating the Max Papis’ of the world AND the guy who wins the Wednesday night series at Unser). What we clearly need is a ladder system that promotes karting at any level and increases participation across the board. Something like:
– Rentals (There is clearly a large audience here…)
– Rental racing (Indoor/Outdoor, Weeknights, Sharing the same race day as a Club/Regional series, good for the track owners too…)
– Club racing (Cadets, Juniors, Seniors, Masters, Shifters… any chassis/engine with some form of rules/safety regs
– Regional/National racing (with appropriate sanctioning bodies, etc.)In some respects, we’re at a low point regarding kart racing if we compare participation levels. However, the number of people in Colorado actually driving karts in a given year is probably at an all time high if you include Unser and all the rentals at the tracks. There are people who are interested and even more that don’t even know they’re interested… yet.
Make people Aware of the ladder, Promote/Market the ladder, Educate & Support people as they move up and down the ladder. Support the tracks and local businesses that support us.
Passion… (that’s Tony’s job)
Safety… (that’s everybody’s job)
Leave it better than you found it… (our government could learn from this one…)I want to share from our experience and other accounts about the cost of LO206. The LO206 when run by the Briggs rule set along with a long lasting spec tire is a very good combination. This has been proven in Canada and in other areas around this country. The LO206 was one of the largest classes at the Rock Island Grand Prix this year (49 racers in Medium and Heavy). Most racers are able to run competitively from out of the box and for up to 3 years with proper oil changes and lapping the valves after every season AND are top finishers from year 1 to 3. Complete packages from mount to exhaust to clutch can be found for $700-$800. If you mess up and need a just a new engine, they are around $550. The sealed short block if you can replace it yourself is around $250. Much less expensive than any other engine, even a clone package (cost of these are getting out of hand out east because of rule sets). With this package, there is minimal gain to be found in tweaking the engine. We and most others have found the most gain in setup and driving skills (practice). This is why the CJKC went with the LO206 for the JR1 class and the Kid Kart class (JR LO206)
Lots of information can be found online:
https://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines-racing/racing-engines/local-option-206
http://karting.4cycle.com/forumdisplay.php?f=152
http://ekartingnews.com/forums/forum/briggs-stratton-4-cycle-racing/I’d like to hear ideas from more individuals. Here are my general thoughts so far.
Everyone needs to realize that no series had it right last year, the biggest race in CO that didn’t involve the nationals in Grand Junction was a 60 kart club/cjkc race at IMI. All the other club/regional series would pull 25-50 entries per race, which is pretty weak. If your series had it right, you would have 100 entries per race because there are more than that many active karters in CO.
No one is here to say this or that engine package is better or worse or looked down upon or whatever. I personally own a clone, 2 rotaxes, a Vortex KF, and a Honda Shifter, and the low power clone is one of the most fun to drive. I had one of my mechanics race it at IMI and he loved it.
Please re-focus and try to come up with some new ideas on generating interest and putting bodies into seats.
Why can’t we run a rental series on the same day as races? Brad at IMI tried it, was it promotion or lack of interest that made it not work? Cost?
My team and I in the Performance Division have come up with a plan, a transformation if you will, that we will be implementing over the winter that will allow us to push the rental guys at Unser into outdoor karts. I’m hoping that as a community we can make a push to drive more people into karts, get our series numbers back up, and in turn have a lot more fun racing at the track.
Greg, I know I would be glad to sit down and talk about what we tried at PPKRC, what worked and didn’t. I believe most of the Board would be open to a sit down with other organizations to find ways to enhance the karting experience and grow the sport. Regardless of what some think, I may not be racing but I’m staying involved to help transition and help support the new PPKRC boards efforts to move karting forward. Sometimes it helps to get new faces into the sport on a regular basis to keep the sport fresh with new ideas and direction. I applaud you and others efforts in trying to find new ways and maybe some old ones in growing the sport. Many of us grew up either karting or driving quarter midgets and have stayed with motorsports our entire lives, some like me, used karting to introduce my kids to motorsports and some have stayed, while others have moved on, all of which should be respected. What we need to do is to find either the entry level folks or the guys like me that came back to karting and provide an experience that meets their needs, regardless of location, cost, series, etc… we all need to be promoters of the sport and respect the fact that some may have more means then others and celebrate the fact that anyone who races regardless of time, money or experience is welcome. I’d suggest using other forms of racing as examples where in most cases all levels are welcome to a race. We should look to those programs successes and model ourselves after some of them. Why try reinvent when others have already gotten it right. Pull together the best practices and move forward with them. Greg it’s good to see new blood taking up the cause to make karting better, stronger and more fun all. Let me know what I or PPKRC can do to help the cause. PPKRC has new leadership that I believe will also help to move karting forward in a positive direction.
Hi all!
Glad to see the community coming together again and looking for answers. We’ve had this discussion repeatedly for years now and I think Jon and others are right on with the root cause.
Cost, cost, cost.
When I started in this sport in 2006 it was possible to be competitive at the club level with a used 3500 dollar kart. I was fortunate enough to actually win some races in fields of up to 30 karters with that kind of investment.
Two years later I spent that in one weekend to compete in the CSC. I know that the CSC was not a club series but the issue we have now is that as costs have soared across all series, kart counts have dropped. As the counts have dropped, series have failed and we don’t have a tiered system anymore. That means that a weekend club racer is now trying to compete against racers with budgets over most people’s annual salaries. There are rigs at club events worth far more than my house. Those rigs are full of spare chassis’, engines, paid tuners and unlimited tires.
I don’t have a perfect solution but I do believe a low cost entry level class could help. I don’t care if it’s easy kart, Briggs, clone or otherwise but if a hobbyist like me can’t compete with an affordable kart and low maintenance/tire costs I don’t expect to see growth. If I wanted to start from scratch today I would have to pay triple what I did 6 or 7 years ago. That doesn’t add up for me.
Skusa and Rotax are great for the competitive regional or national racer with a big budget and believe me, I love banging gears. That said, I believe we need an affordable option like we had back in 05-08 if we want this sport to grow again.
This is only my opinion and I’m not interested in a debate. I just wanted to echo what I’ve seen others say and suggest a low cost option.
I hope that karting in Colorado is healthy when I make it back to the states!
I think you are off on what it takes to be competitive. I just bought my TAG kart(CRG Rotax) last November for just over $4000 with a ton of spares and some tires. Budgeted for one top end rebuild and a full rebuild for the season. I am very competitive at the GJMS club races. I also went to some of the RMPKC budgeted for about 3 of them. I only bought tires for the race. I would practice on used tires run pump fuel when I could(practice no one really cared). I was running great at IMI until a center seal leak let water into my bottom end killing the rod bearing. The GJ RMPKC I did alright Saturday and Qualified 3rd Sunday. I was laughing all weekend as I was pitted with my pickup an easy up and my tent that I slept in next to a high dollar motor home and trailer. Never once did I think my budget or kart was holding me back.
One of the issues with cost is the perceived cost it takes to race and the actual cost. It is always easier to look at the guy who won and say he won because he out spent you vs he out drove you. I saw this all the time racing DH mountain bikes at a high level in the US and Canada. Guys constantly saying if only I had the money that guys does I could win. When on the track you could visibly see things his riding could improve upon. We need to as a group recognize what is an actual cost to race and what is truly needed and educate new drivers about this. I am hoping to race one SKUSA Pro Tour race next year. I will be there with just my pickup and easy up and tent again. Do I feel like I will be at a disadvantage, no. My driving has more to do with making up tenths on the track then having a freshly rebuilt engine every race. So saying you need a very high budget to be competitive at club races is not right.
There is a big jump from club races to the RMPKC races though. Next week at GJMS I could show up with my kart and for $45 entry/transponder and 5 gallons of pump fuel race on Sunday and have a blast. Now to show up and race the RMPKC we are talking 10 times that cost. I think this gap is something that needs looked at.
Driving is one thing at a club event. To be competitive at a national event…..money for the right motors, cylinders, and just becomes a bigger part of the equation. In Supernats of 2008, after a practice session I got to try a PSL Karting ICC, with no other changes, the data showed 4 mph increase and we gained 1.2 seconds…..Thats one of the graces of motorsports. Those that participate in the higher levels of karting bring that experience and equipment to the club race and while it does create a big gap, it also makes club racers better.
I do remember the CSC days where we would have a 140 a race. The economy hit hard and everyone left, and disposable income became rare. Recently, I have seen a trend. People view the low numbers at club races and respectively state there is no competition to race against. So they stop doing club races and save for just national races. This has been exponentially increasing, its a big spiral, not just our state. Why do you think every pro tour has almost increased 50% in entries since last year?
We have a lot of pro racers in Colorado, they just don’t do club races because of the stated reason.. Heck I am not racing club races because I have no one to race against, there is 2 shifters at a race. I If Schuerman, Schimmel, and other pro shifters locally raced I would as well.
Thats my reason for lack of entries.
Costs between local and regional races is big….but they are justifiable…. flown in staff, bigger tire inventories, and different track requirements. Would a regional series survive at $50 an entry? 50 entries got paid for at one race at RMPKC. Costs are always trying to be lowered and The Track at Centennial and RMPKC have done so. I honestly don’t believe that solely lowering costs will bring back the glory days. There are many, many other factors.
Less is more, always has been. The CSC was huge in the the early 2000’s because we had fewer races. There were not 20 races total in the state in the season. There were three tracks, IMI, Bandi and GJ. (The Track did not exist yet). We did one race at each and a final in Steamboat. Each track did a club series but they were very short and limited.
The average racer has at most the funds and time to do 10 races in a season. With an average cost of $300 per race for a low budget effort, that’s $3,000 not including kart or possible damage. Add in testing, that number rises very quickly and will price most racers out of action.
The bottom line is very simple, if you want bigger races, you need fewer races. Multiple series organizers each wanted to run a complete season, will fail. No one will get the critical mass necessary to make the event profitable.
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