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Club racing
Open to everyone. Low key atmosphere with the emphasis on fun and develpment. This is the grassroot bassis of our sport and one of the most critical for its health and well being. The class structure should mirror the needs of the local customers. Classes can be unique to the area. The most open and accomadating form of racing.
Regional racing
A cross or mix of club and national level racers. It gives a place for the better club racer to hone his/her/its skills in a more competitive environment and the national level racer a place to maintain his/her/its skills. The racing is much more serious than club, the controls tighter and should mirror more of the national class structure in both rules and procedures. Not every club racer can or should compete here.
National racing
Expensive, requires significant amounts of travel and a coresponding budget. Very rigid structure in both classes and procedures. Very limited in options.
The problem as I see it for the CSC is that it doesn’t quite know where it fits. At times it’s trying to be a club race, at times a regional race. It can’t be both. It has to decide if its going to be a gloified club race or a legitmate regional race.
Right now, its basically a glorified club race. However, club racing is getting killed and we are killing the basis of our sport. Just look at the numbers. Action karting dropped club racing altogether, a business decision and a smart one I might add. IMI numbers are a fraction of what they once were and they added Motard to make up the numbers needed for a sucessful event. We have a great new facility in The Track and it is drawing didly for a club race. If things don’t improve in numbers for him, I would think that Jim would follow Action Karting and just do rentals. I’m sure he would make more money on rentals and test and tuners than running a race with less than 30 karts. I would hate to see it but I wouldn’t blame him if he did it. After all, at the end of the day, he has bills to pay. Contrary to popular belief, a track is not a charity for wayward racers.
Killing club racing is killing our future. Everyone needs the club level racer. The shops, the tracks. We need new people coming into our sport, we need lower cost classes. The sad thing is that 90% of those of you reading this will not be in the sport in two years. We need a race and class structure that will at least give you the opportunity to get in this sport and stay in it. We need to put the emphasis back on club racing and the only way we can do it is by shrinking the regional racing.
The CSC needs to reduce the number of classes, not race groups, classes It needs to reduce the number of races. The future of the sport depends on it.
Doug,
I agree 100%What can we do to help???? :idn: :idn:
Like we’ve said all along: eliminate or combine classes at the CSC level and “anything goes” at the club level
Nobody is saying much different. I don’t hear anything from the track owners or the CSC.
As I said before talk is cheap. It is time to unite for 2007—-
*track owners
*racers
*kart shops
*CSC, Club, regionalinto one Colorado body. But I hear no one stepping forward. Yea we are still in the 2006 season, but when the 2006 season is over in October we only have 5 mos before the 2007 season starts. In the past Colorado karting can’t get its’ _ _ _ _ together until March-April.
Is it going to be the CSC Group asking for help or will it be the Racers Group who is going to step up. If it is the racers group it will probably split Colorado karting.
Changes have to be made for 2007.
Other than a select few racers from Utah the CSC racers are all local club racers. There are only a few of our locals I would consider national level. CSC is still a group of racers that want to have fun at different tracks. Limit the classes too much and we will only be getting 70 karts to a CSC race, careful what you wish for. I am all for changing the class structure to make the classes larger; I am not for eliminated 30-40 racers by doing it. The reason the club races are down is mainly due to the 9 CSC races. Between CSC, IMI, and THE TRACK, there are 39 races available to about 150 active racers. We have discussed going down to 5 CSC races, one race at each track. Then IMI and THE TRACK could have a mini series with 6 club races each, classes the same at each track and combine points for the season. That would be 17 events which I think would be well attended.
I always enjoy the insight and wisdom that Doug has to offer our community and I basically agree with what is being said. There are so many contributing factors to our current state that it is not only difficult to improve all of them at ounce, it?s equally as difficult to address all of them in any forum or article here. I would like to build on Doug?s comments. Misc. thoughts and questions (I don?t necessarily have all the answers):
Good question, what is the CSC? A glorified club race or legitimate regional series? If it?s killing our sport then let?s get rid of it, back to just club races. ?Oh no, we want to have something to aspire to, more competition, some prestige!? Lets say we have roughly 125 active Kart racers in Colo. Where did they come from? Obviously many places but one of the places was from the club ranks. I know I?m repeating myself but it always sounds like a lot of the discussion is only trying to decide the best way to divide up the pie. 125 racers, 5 tracks, 30 club races and 9 CSC races. It?s math. If we only ever want to have 125 racers then get rid of the CSC and lets all support just the club races at the tracks and have an average of 60+ in attendance. However, if racers want an elevated level of racing and will support a regional series, (which seems to be the case looking at the entry numbers from this year?s CSC events so far, although I personally feel that nine is about three or four too many) is that the racers fault? I agree with Doug that perhaps a nine race CSC is killing club racing but it?s not killing the growth of the sport. Redistributing a captive audience of 125 racers will not grow the sport, only growing the sport will grow the sport and where do things grow; from the bottom up! Try this, go out to the tree in your back yard, cut a few branches off the top and tape them back around the bottom, how much did your tree grow?
I recall our own brief history in the sport. 2004 (our first year) we only raced the club races at Action Karting and that included two CSCs that overlapped. We also went to one IMI club race just to see what another track might be like. We didn?t even finish on the lead lap until the last race of the year. 2005 the kid saw all the really big trophies at the ?04 banquet and asked how he could get one of those? ?Those are for the State Series? I said. ?Wow, the whole state, I want to do that next year!? says the kid. OK, so we do the 7 race CSC and pick up a few club races for practice and testing, things started clicking and he finished 2nd for the series. What?s the point, well I have gotten a few others involve in the sport and I have encouraged them depending on the learning curve and their budget, to focus on the club races until they feel comfortable and I will be bringing in a few more next year.
Bottom line. Redistribution of participants will not grow the sport. I want to support the tracks and club racing. How do I do it, I bring new bodies to the sport not try to talk someone already racing to go race somewhere else. Is this my job? Officially no, morally yes. I do it out of sheer enthusiasm and love of motorsports. Is it anyone?s job? Yes, at least in the sense that there are also businesses that rely on the sport and therefore they should always make an obvious effort to grow the sport from the bottom up not to try and covet what already exists. Example, I had a friend call a local track to try and arrange a birthday party for a group of kids, (5-10 yr olds). They were very flexible on times, etc. When it came to price they were told the ?off the sign? lap rate. My friend was willing to spend some money but they offered no group or volume discount let alone that these were mostly first timers and kids that could potentially get involved in the sport all from a very good neighborhood? They went to Jungle Quest.
In the end it?s all of our job but the tracks and businesses should take the helm in developing grass roots participation. How many tracks and/or businesses have space reserved for a display at the Denver Grand Prix coming up in a couple of weeks?
There should be just enough regional races to do three primary things: satisfy the racers need to compete at a higher level, give newbies something to aspire to and to provide a marketing showcase of the sport at the highest level possible. What is that magical number, I don?t know but 8-12 club races at every track doesn?t help anyone either.
Doug?s right, the CSC and the clubs need to decide what they are and their purpose, but the same decision applies to the racers.
Classes?..ooooooh that?s a whole other post. Bye for now.
Scott Hannum
@Doug Welch wrote:
Club racing
Open to everyone. Low key atmosphere with the emphasis on fun and develpment. This is the grassroot bassis of our sport and one of the most critical for its health and well being. The class structure should mirror the needs of the local customers. Classes can be unique to the area. The most open and accomadating form of racing.
Regional racing
A cross or mix of club and national level racers. It gives a place for the better club racer to hone his/her/its skills in a more competitive environment and the national level racer a place to maintain his/her/its skills. The racing is much more serious than club, the controls tighter and should mirror more of the national class structure in both rules and procedures. Not every club racer can or should compete here.
National racing
Expensive, requires significant amounts of travel and a coresponding budget. Very rigid structure in both classes and procedures. Very limited in options.
The problem as I see it for the CSC is that it doesn’t quite know where it fits. At times it’s trying to be a club race, at times a regional race. It can’t be both. It has to decide if its going to be a gloified club race or a legitmate regional race.
Right now, its basically a glorified club race. However, club racing is getting killed and we are killing the basis of our sport. Just look at the numbers. Action karting dropped club racing altogether, a business decision and a smart one I might add. IMI numbers are a fraction of what they once were and they added Motard to make up the numbers needed for a sucessful event. We have a great new facility in The Track and it is drawing didly for a club race. If things don’t improve in numbers for him, I would think that Jim would follow Action Karting and just do rentals. I’m sure he would make more money on rentals and test and tuners than running a race with less than 30 karts. I would hate to see it but I wouldn’t blame him if he did it. After all, at the end of the day, he has bills to pay. Contrary to popular belief, a track is not a charity for wayward racers.
Killing club racing is killing our future. Everyone needs the club level racer. The shops, the tracks. We need new people coming into our sport, we need lower cost classes. The sad thing is that 90% of those of you reading this will not be in the sport in two years. We need a race and class structure that will at least give you the opportunity to get in this sport and stay in it. We need to put the emphasis back on club racing and the only way we can do it is by shrinking the regional racing.
The CSC needs to reduce the number of classes, not race groups, classes It needs to reduce the number of races. The future of the sport depends on it.
Great thoughts Doug. What are your thoughts on selecting a tire that lasts a bit longer than the Yellows for club racing, then something more in line with what STARS, Prokart challenge, etc would run for a “regional/national” race?
The Club guys up here at Mosport in Canada use Dunlop Sl-4’s…..apparantly they get 350-400 laps out of these babies, and you can run them more than 1 race and still be up front with the rest?
Reason I say is that I will probably will be coming back soon from running Formula Ford’s and am thinking about running a spec shifter myself….but for a 9 race schedule + practice, etc, thats A LOT of $$$ for tires.
Thanks guys!
All good points from good people – this is just my suggestion…
Seemed to me that the organization of the Greeley thing worked pretty well and was accomplished through a series of meetings composed of people interested in the project, while including ideas from everybody – but still, being directed by a central group. This should be the model – just take it to a bigger scale – man, if we could pull that off – people would talk…
Why couldn’t we take a representative from each track in Colorado, include the officials involved, and then maybe let’s say three elected people who represent the racers in Colorado and form a group that would find a direction for 2007 that would address concerns on both sides of the fence – that being the concerns of the business’ / tracks vs. the racers. The goal being, coming up with something that is both good for the racers, as well as the tracks and kart business’ and having a well laid out and agreed upon agenda for 2007 – WELL before the annual meeting – this would include rules – schedules – races – ect. for all of Colorado, well – at least the ones that really want to play ball… Everyone has opinions of what they think karting in Colorado should include, obviously you can’t please everyone – but I think if there is a coordinated effort to address all the issues, we can have a real good thing going here – just need to start working on it NOW! Rich Vito is right, who’s gonna step up?? Let’s not just throw around ideas (while that’s a good thing in itself), but let’s work toward something – there’s lots of smart guys in Colorado karting – you proved it by putting on the Greeley thing – just follow the progression and come up with something for 2007.
if Plato had a kart…
Gary
Brad is right on several points. We are basically a Colorado based series. However, our region, the state of Colorado, is comparable in geographic size to 3 or 4 eastern states!
We do have some of the best facilities in the country. Most areas os the country can only wish for what we have with in 30 minutes drive of downtown Denver. I won’t conceed that if we limit classes, we will only get 70 racers. That assumption is based on the idea that those racers whose class is eliminated won’t keep racing in a different class. For sure some will quit, but how many of them would have quit anyways. After all, remember that most racers don’t make 3 years in this sport. SSC has done some marketing surveys and they have found that most new karters only last 16 months on average. They buy a kart in the summer of one year, sell it during the fall of the following year.
I just looked at some numbers from previous years. In 2004, the Pro class had 30 racers who earned points that year. This year so far, 10. 2004, 16 racers did more than half of the events with 7 doing every event. This year, the number is 6 have done more than half the events, only 4 all of them. Of that orginal 30, only 14 of them are still involved in the sport in some capacity. Of even more concern, of the 10 Pros this year, almost half of them graduated from high school this year and are headed off to college. Their racing will be limited at best next year. If we can’t keep our Pros, our best racers in the sport, how do we expect to keep our weaker members?
At one time we did have a SKUSA region in our area. It drew around 60 to 70 racers at an average event, with the high mark over 100 at Second Creek. At the time however, we could only race the SKUSA region at CRE. As Action karting was much smaller then and run by the CIKF, which was a Briggs sealed based group. IMI would not have a stand alone SKUSA event at its track. SKUSA at the time was also limited to only shifters.
The CSC I invision would be much broader in its scope and range than the old SKUSA region was. It would include clutch karts as well as shifters and more junior classes. I think that with just a bit of effort, we could easily have only 9 classes and still have well over 100 racers at each event. By limiting the CSC to 5 races, I would be willing to bet that each of the two club series (I’m assuming that Action karting would still concentrate on its rental business) would start drawing better than 50 racers at each event if not more. The simple reason is this, 5 CSC races is not enough for a person to satisfy their need for speed. Most likely they would pick a series IMI or The Track, which ever is closer to their home, and do at least a partial series.
I dont usually have much to say being from over here on the west side of the mountain but what we have witnessed at the Miller track is all the local racers (a lot of them anyways) trying to dictate to Miller what he should do to please all the kart racers. They figure if they throw down a hundred here and a hundred there they are keeping his high tech facility open when in fact the club racers are just spit on the windshield of his future. Keenan works out there 3-4 days a week and says the rentals are almost non stop. $20.00 for ten minutes and all smiles from 95% of the renters. Sure it is still new and some renters are teams from the big track but we already have a saying out here and that is that The Monster is the nicest future rental track in the world. There is talk about somebody building another kart track in the area but until then the club racers will have to start getting used to playing with the rentals since Saturdays are race days due to this being Utah and all. I dont know what the answer is out here but hopefully Colorado will figure it out and give Utah some ideas.
Craig
CRE is never mentioned for the CSC series. It is time it is.
You kart track owners should be discussing this behind the scenes and extend an olive branch to George and include CRE.
Darn it, for one race in the 2007 CSC series you owners & George can suck it up, can’t you?
One race at each track and the Greeley GP would give you 6 races for the CSC, with one drop.
What is the magic number of classes we should have????? We all know we have to many now!!!
I agree a lot with what Doug says. I for one think you would draw more out of staters with a 5 race series that would in small part offset some of the numbers lost by also reducing the number of classes. I know we as a team (Reaction Karting) would be more inclined to do the entire series if it was only 5 races as we could run all the races and save travel costs.
I have to say, we have really enjoyed the CSC races and all the Colorado racers we have met and don’t think the problems brought up are exclusive to the CSC. Karting in general suffers from to many classes. But like Doug said you may lose some racers from cutting classes but it will make it better for current and FUTURE racers. You may lose 25 but is it worth it to gain 50?
Brandon
Reaction Karting
http://www.reactionkarting.comI have not read one comment yet that contradicts what is being done out West in the PKC. Fewer classes, rules, schedule posted way in advance of winter, tech, nice awards… The list goes on.
We can add junior classes to our PKC/CSC version of racing. No need to print new rules. We can go as far as CA to race if we so desire. The Utah gang will love the racing format of going home on Sunday’s. We can organize a staff to represent karters, owners and shops. We can get many paid series sponsors to offset the cost of race day.
Everything you folks are saying is what has already been posted in the other two “next year” threads.
I am willing to host a meeting in mid August if it can be represented by a few racers, owners and any shop’s wanting to throw their concerns on the table.
Or, the same 9 or 10 of us who constantly post on this site can continue to voice our own opinions.You all know how to reach me. Bye for now.
Curt:
I applaud your organizing efforts and if you organize it people will come. I can speak for myself and I will.
Rich, Quit speaking for George. He’s a grown man and can work this out himself IF HE WANTS TO. It’s a two way street.
From a business standpoint and let’s be realistic: you cut classes down and we reduce the amount of drivers from 100-120 to 70-80 you really think the track owners are going to salivate at that? They are in business TO STAY IN BUSINESS AND EARN A LIVING. Reality is this: combine classes on the track (except the novice class or relagate it to the club series) and if people adhere to the rule of number plates for different classes then we see: a) lots more on track action and passing b) more track time for ALL RACERS c) the opportunity to run 3-6 karts of a dying class together until it atrophies on it’s own accord. THIS GIVES US ALL OPTIONS versus stuff crammed down our throats. AND IT GIVES THE TRACK OWNERS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE MORE MONEY.
I’d like to add another wrench in the spokes: Have a rental class. Pay at the door and you can race with the other 4 cycle karts (they have experience, they’ll know how to get around you) and let’s see how many people actually would enter the karting fold that way… Just a thougth.
We as racers are trying to shove demands down the throats of the track owners. I’m absolutely positive that’s going to work. I don’t know the debt service of the track owners but whatever occurs,they need to make M O N E Y. How many corporate days has THE TRACK had in the last month or rentals? It more than makes up for our test and tune days dontcha think?OOps. I’m rambling. Out… 8)
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