2005 CSC Rules & Classes

i have to agree with curt on the money issue, way to many people are running ICC motors too lean and to many RPM, i for one have seen mostly all the upper and lowerend faliure due to lean conditions, that is even what happend to mine. I even heard some people run there pavesis to 15.5rpm, thats crazy. The new skusa rules are going to keep the cost down on the motos big time with the compression cap, and hopefully over the winter development allows more knowlege about the other motors.
BTW Curt and Matt, good job in steamboat

… and make sure the drain plug stays in….

Above “dnew” writes, “MiniMax under the same condition (sea level) produces: 13.4Hp @ 8500rpm and 9 ft-lbs of torque @ 7500rpm.” This according to the manufacture’s web site.

Ouch.. Mike you know I was running Prolong and don’t they claim you can run it without oil?? 😯 Yes, Dad forgot to put oil back in after taking it out and had a $300 lesson to remind him not to forget that again.

Now Stacey, you know we all run “stock” animals… 😆 Sorry, I had to say that…. Our motor produces 10.1 HP on a dyno here in Colorado which is calibrated to give the “sea level” HP reading. After a motor has been “modified” within the limits of WKA rules of course the typical range of HP values on the animals that our motor builder has seen (Racer’s Edge) range between 9.1 to 10.3 HP, but he has seen one 10.5 HP. I have asked him what a true stock motor produces and he told me typical it is between 8 and 9 HP on his dyno. I have also asked him what he believes is the true HP reading of an animal at this altitude; basically reduce his valves by 1 HP. Precision Cams, another engine builder, thought it should be around 13% reduction in HP when going from sea level to here, which should also hold true for the MiniMax motor. (Racer’s Edge has tested several other engine builders? motors on his dyno and all to date have fallen between the range listed above. For example, several Jr1’s are using Precision Cam motors. One of those motors from PC that Racer’s Edge tested here produced 9.5 HP even though the dyno sheet from PC back east had it at 15.5HP.) So I believe there has to be at least 2.5HP difference between the Minimax and Animal at whatever altitude.

Stacey, Conner and I would like to take you up maybe this spring but perhaps this fall, and try a Minimax on your track and I will bring Conner’s animal and if you like maybe Bo or Sabre can try our animal and give you a better feel for it. (Bo and Conner are about the same size.)

I think to race the mini max and a briggs motor togather you would have to use the WF motor to have an all most even playing field. Then again they are two different birds. It’s about like saying lets race the adult mod animal in the master TAG class. I wouldn’t mind it but some of the slower tag guys wouldn’t like it much.
We are just lucky that we have too many choices of power plants to race.
Me being a sort of a die hard briggs guy in a 2 stroke community. I have gotten to the point of just waiting to see what class Colorado “orginizers”,”us” come up with that I would want to play in. The “Orginizers” have been grate in letting everyone voice opinions and rules to make up classes. All of us seem motivated to try get every one that has a go-kart, in a class, to race and participate. That’s grate, but it doesn’t lead to much of a “orginized” direction of growth, at least to a Briggs guy. My hat is off to all that made the last 2 years of the CSC work so well. In my dreams I see karting growing so well, that we would need to have a 2 cycle CSC Series as well as a 4 cycle Series. But then in reality I hardly ever see any Jr 4 cyclers move up to adult 4 cyclers. Probably because it’s a 2 cycle communitty and “Majority rules”.
The WF motor in stock form would be sweet as a JR TAG type motor as it does even have on board starting. $1000.00 race ready. The animals used in the Jr rules are stock animals with a stock cam, ( at least they are supposed to be), run $550.00 plus a gas jet kit of $34.00 and header $50.00, fuel pump $20.00, clutch $60.00-$120.00
About $700.00 race ready.
How much is a minimax?
The animal can be made into a WF and a WF made into an animal. Booth motors can be used in Jr. classes and be developed to be used when they become adults in adult stock/mod/open classes. There are national orginizations using the motors in there events as well as Briggs sponcered prize money.
OK so what now? :idn: Well, Bombardier has better marketing abilities to the recreationial public than Briggs does but Briggs will have more little motors in the publics hands before bombardier does.
I got to quit this :bs:

Brad,
Regarding the Kid Kart class, I don’t think we would have to touch the KK at all. Based upon my calculations, since we didn’t run a MyChron in the class like some now do and who might be able to shed some light on the subject, Conner at best ran 39mph top speed, which might be slightly higher than the true mph. His Junior 1 has seen 63mph and I know of another who has seen faster than that, but they are for sure hitting 60mph on the long straight-aways at IMI. Don’t you think that is a pretty good jump for a 7 and 8 year old to make from KK? (The Junior 1 to TAG Jr jump doesn’t look all that huge to me. The time difference between Jr 1’s and TAG Jr’s per lap at Bandimere is 2 seconds and at IMI about 4 seconds.) Even though some parents would like to slow down the Jr 1’s, I doubt if that will occur. As you probably know better than I do, that changing things in Karting is at best difficult.

Regarding the engine change every one to two years. I see your point, but I don’t think it is all that bad. Long term goals in karting, wow you are way ahead of me there, I still am taking it one season at a time. 😆 Maybe that is part of my problem. Anyway, there are 3 to 4 years for some of us in Jr 1’s before having to make another engine/class choice again. Remember Brad Linkus’ post a while back saying something like most karters on average last 3 years before moving on to something else. So Conner and I just may be set with just, this animal engine. 🙂 But nonetheless we do have several choices if we leave this class and go into TAG including another non-briggs 4 cycle, the Biland. Besides, I have a little history in mobile emissions and if things keep progressing, 2 cycles may be the ones on there way out within karting in the next 5 to 10 years if not sooner, replaced by those darn thumpers…… (look at snowmobiles, jet ski’s, and motocross)…. Ok Scotty, SHIELDS UP for this comment!!!

Obviously, we are never going to agree on costs difference between the two, but seriously how much does it cost to have a piston and ring changed out on a sealed motor? How much to rebuild it completely? Is there an additional charge for working on a sealed motor?

Brad, I am really not trying to upset you, we have had some good history and a lot of fun last year in the KK class, but look at it from my point of view, my son is now 8, which puts us in the junior 1 class. We wanted to compete in the CSC as it is a great series, and right or wrong there are currently three engine choices to choose from within this CSC class. After doing some research it was obvious to me that the animal was the best choice for that class. Not trying to be an ?#@, and I understand why you like the MM so much, but I still have an honest question for you regarding the MM, while you and several others decided and again for some good reasons to buy a MM, where were you planning to race it? It is late and am I out of line for asking this?

Maybe it is a simple matter of putting a MM on a dyno here and adding weight to fit it within the Jr 1’s. I did some basic weight/hp calculations and boy does the amount of calculated weight added to the MM look high and dangerous to non-MMs in the class. Again, I sure would like to hear Brad Linkus, JB’s, Bill Ray and Doug Welch’s thoughts on this. I’m I just the lone idiot in the wind on this…..

I have asked/hinted twice now on how many “committed” MM’s will show up to most if not all CSC events. No one has responded yet, but it is my belief and limited business sense that the CSC organization will want to know that before adding or modifying any current class. (Maybe I am completely wrong on this.) Basically, are we worried about all this for just 3 karts or are there 10 and what is the magic number that makes the difference anyway? Personally, I would love to see the MM, along with the puma and WF too, become the new faster Junior 2 class, but even then there are some issues. I think one of the major issues is, what is the age group for this class? Do we keep it 12-15 like now which doesn’t help you, or change it to 10-15 or 8-15 or 8-12? Do we really want two 8-12 classes, can they and/or should they both be supported? :idn:

In the end, the CSC powers will probably decide for us or maybe let us vote on it, but like everything else “we can’t please everyone.” As I see it, either we let CSC powers with their personal experience and history decide the best route or let the parentsracers and their pocket books decide.

I for one would like some decisions made well before next season starts. I am planning on running Stars of Karting at the national level with my son, as well as SKUSA and or I.K.F with the shifter kart. I am trying to figure out a budget as well as decide if im rebuilding an animal. I am also leaning toward the mini max for the CSC . $2200 for a motor that would run a season without a rebuild sounds nice to me. I went through three comer motors and one animal at the CSC, which far exceeds the cost of a mini max.

Hope some decisions are made soon,
Brian Moore
Father of Brandon #77 jr1 and novice shifter

I am one of several “broker records” on this topic but to me, the Mini Max is a totally logical motor for a TAG novice class. This seems to be a gaping hole in our race class structure here in CO. :cheers: